"Anonymous" Criticizes Hillary for her Strengths

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Some leftward "progressive" Democrats revile Hillary for the very characteristics that have made her like stainless steel, "impervious to Republican attacks and durable to the finish."

"Anonymous", who posted a comment at my blog, says the following about John Edwards, Hillary and Obama, and while I don't agree with the part about Hillary, I nonetheless post the whole unedited comment here prominently because I think it's worth discussing.  Anonymous said:

I saw this blog and remember you from some of your posts at mydd.

For me, Edwards is bland. True white bread. Just a bland man looking for an indentity. And, he is staying in 3rd place and falling behind every week. a few points down here or there and I see him as getting to nowhere . . . Anonymous

I dislike Hillary. I cannot stand her. I hate that machine, corporate and consultant robot. You do not ever see the real Hillary. You never will. She is so made over and controlled by polls and consultants that she is just a shell.

Obama is my candidate. He is my senator. I have never seen a force of nature like Obama. People think a black man cannot be elected to president but, I have heard wingers who like him and his color is just that. a color. He is liked by many. I have looked on freeperville and never see the kind of hate said of him like they do of other dems. It's like they have to work at disliking him because he is a dem.  Anonymous

I support you, Anonymous, in your enthusiasm for Barack Obama, but I strongly disagree with the criticism of Hillary, not because it is entirely unfounded, but because (as I said in response to a Dana Millbanks article that expressed similar sentiments) you revile Hillary for some of the very characteristics that have made her impervious to Republicans attacks. For example (and I'll say this here knowing and respecting that you and other Hillary-haters at MyDD may strongly disagree with me) . . .  Continued at the Francis L. Holland Blog

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Re: "Anonymous" Criticizes Hillary (none / 0)

I hate to revel in the disappointment (even rage) of others, but when Hillary wins the nomination and then goes on to whallop the Repub nominee, I am going to chuckle at the netroots Hillary-haters and every Republican who has tried to destroy her.

John Edwards, at every opportunity, takes jabs at Hillary in his speeches, implying that he is the candidate of honesty, openness and decency.  Obama has done the same, to a lesser extent, although he got his wife Michelle to take clear shots at Hillary at the Obama fundraiser in NYC this weekend.  Neither Obama nor Edwards will be able to bring Hillary down.  

I am quite convinced of that.


by marasaud on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 02:39:01 PM EST

Hear, hear! (none / 0)

If the Republicans couldn't take Hillary on or take her down in two historical US Senate contests, I don't think Obama (who has my deep respect) or Edwards (who is a good citizen), neither of them and both of them together are not going to be able to  beat Hillary.

Obama has no motive to help Edwards, because if Edwards wins then Obama gets quickly forgotten, but if Hillary wins, Obama likely becomes the next Vice President of the United States.

Obama has two ways to win in 2008:  as the presidential nominee or as Hillary's vice presidential nominee.  If Edwards wins, then Obama (and his supporters) try valiantly but not very successfully to think of something good to say about Edwards and his white male(?) running mate on the campaign trail.

Anybody who disagrees with me better be ready to assert that Edwards is going to nominate a woman or minority running mate.

Let's face it!  If Edwards supporters don't think it's important to elect the first woman or Black president, they're not going to think it's important to elect the first woman or Black VICE president either.


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 03:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear, hear! (none / 0)

"Anybody who disagrees with me better be ready to assert that Edwards is going to nominate a woman or minority running mate."

First of all, it is absurd to demand that we say we know he will pick a minority or a woman.  There is nothing to indicate that he would be unwilling to.

If John is the nominee, then I'll hope he picks Barack.  They are somewhat similar, so it wouldn't balance the ticket, but it would double John's strengths.  As well, Barack as the VP nominee would almost be as exciting as if he were the nominee for POTUS.  I don't see how Democrats will not do well with Barack as #1 or #2 on a ticket.

But the traditional idea is that a VP nominee should balance out a ticket.  With John, the CW would be to pick "our Cheney", someone older, with more experience, particularly on defense/foreign policy.  But I think this exaggerates the influence that a traditional VP nominee has.  Barack would not be a traditional VP nominee, and I think he'd have a lot more influence than they typically have.

And by the way, has Hillary, in either of her two elections, faced a serious Republican opponent?  Nope.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 05:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear, hear! (none / 0)

Hillary faced Giuliani in 2004, before Giuliani "got sick" and backed out of the race.  

Is a US Senate seat so uninteresting that no serious Republicans wants to be the Senator from New York.  More likely, no serious Republicans believed s/he could be Hillary, and so they decided not to run at all.

Lazio, who finally ran against Hillary in 2000, was a semi-serious Republican.  He was a lifelong New Yorker and a member of the Legislature, if I remember correctly.  Hillary made him "look" unserious and that's part of why he lost the election.

In 2012 when Hillary is the sitting President, you'll be saying that President Hillary Clinton has never had a serious Republican opponent because she "only" beat Chuck Hagel or Mitt Romney back in 2008, and that didn't count because they weren't serious Republicans.


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 06:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hear, hear! (none / 0)

Hillary never really faced Rudy, and Lazio made himself look like a little boy.

And Hagel will not be the nominee, because conservatives hate him, and if ANYONE beats Romney, it will be because he is a Mormon, and Multiple-Choice Mitt.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 06:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Criticizes Hillary for her Strengths (none / 0)


by marasaud on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 02:39:13 PM EST

Hillary (none / 0)

francislholland:


We are on the same page here.  Hillary is SUCH a strong candidate.  The new Ipsos poll says it all:  honesty is the most important quality that people are seeking in their next President, and Hillary wins the honesty contest, hands down.

She doesn't have to stand on a stage and repeatedly declare (or strongly imply) that she is honest, decent and open, the way John Edwards does.  She just "is".  


by marasaud on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 03:52:17 PM EST

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

That's it, right there!


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 06:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary doesn't challenge Edwards cred, because (none / 0)

she doesn't have to.  Everything Edwards is doing, from suddenly becoming the "anti-poverty candidate" to suddenly becoming anti-warrior-than-thou is hurting Edwards credibility on a daily basis.  Only "progressives" desperate for someone who talks like a populist can suspend disbelief and belief that Edwards actually is a populist, while to the rest of us he just sounds like a huckster opportunist.

Edwards is a good man, but even a good man sounds incredible when he tries to sell a tomato by claiming that it's a pumpkin.


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 06:09:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary doesn't challenge (none / 0)

I have to point out that in 2003-2004, John's theme was also "Two Americas", which was about the powerful and the disempowered.  John has all the marks of a real populist- he grew up humble, worked for people who were wronged as a career, and now is trying to fight economic injustice.  He's a more natural populist than many populists that we've had in the past.  Are you unaware of all the time he has spent campaigning for raising the minimum wage acrss the country?  Are you unaware of how much time he has spent rallying with striking workers?

And have you seen his speech to the DNC winter meeting?  I'm not sure how anyone could see that and not think he was genuine.  At other times, either in speeches or casual remarks, its all the same guy.  Populist language just flows from his lips.  It seems to be who he is.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lmRPxIAMJsg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3sgy9SFJrnk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5XMp3yMa3zE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8fkoV-4uX5M


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 06:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Jawdrop (none / 0)

Honest?

Okay then...the person who just "happened to stumble on" the Rose Law Firm records after 2 years? In a closet?

The person who knew nothing about the travel office firings she was on record for instigating?

Please.

The Clintons may be a lot of things, many of them good, but "honest" ain't high up on the list.


by ElitistJohn on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 07:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Jawdrop (none / 0)

I know you are responding to francis and not me, but the point I was trying to make, is that supporters of candidates seem to think that they should be seen as credible prima facia, and then tear down other candidates because they seem dishonest or have funny feelings about them.  I made the point poorly, because I didn't even allude to it, really.

Francis, if we should try to trust Hillary or Barack, despite our deep misgivings, why shouldn't you try to do the same with John?  And why is our yearning for populism worthy of ridicule?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 07:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yearning for populism (none / 0)

The yearning for populism ought not be ridiculed, but the suspension of disbelief is of great concern.    Personally, I'm less concerned with what candidates say than with who they are.

Barack Obama worked for three years as a community organizer, which is pretty good resume material for a populist.  John Edwards has never done any community organizing, except perhaps to get himself elected to the US Senate.

John Edwards finished law school and went directly to a private law firm in North Carolina with a Republican reputation, defending large corporations in liability suits.  Barack Obama finished law school and went to work with the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights while starting his own civil rights law practice.  

Just those facts tell me who IS the populist as opposed to who talks like a populist.  Anyone can talk like a populist, but actually being one is something very different.

Populism is about a revolutionary redirection of society's resources toward those who have less.  If you want to do that, the first step would be to redirect the presidency toward one of the demographic groups that has NEVER held it, like women or Blacks or Latinos.  That would be a populist step, while electing John Edwards is the greatest possible reaffirmation of the elitist group (in the sense of historical privilege) status quo.

The desire to see Edwards as a populist hero reminds me of the Rocky movies.  Look at the historical context of the Rocky movies:  When Blacks had held the heavy weight championship title for damn near two decades, suddenly the white imagination conjures up "Rocky" who comes along as the white hero who beats the Black man.  

But it really WAS a fantasy, because no white man has held the heavy-weight title for as long as I have been watching television.

And so, instead of facing reality, there is often a white flight into fantasy, and I see the image of Edwards as a populist hero as being just that -  a white flight into fantasyland on the wings of John Edwards, who may himself believe the populist identity that he is daily crafting for himself.  It's a pretty narrative, and we certainly want to believe that there is a populist choice, but let's face it:  John Edwards is a wealthy trial lawyer with no particular history as a fighter for the poor, except when he was receiving 35% of their civil awards as his contingency fee.

How much pro bono work did Edwards and his firm do while Obama was working as a civil rights lawyer?  I certainly would like to know the answer to that question?

John Edwards would be a better president than any of the Republicans, but his election as the 44th white male president is would everywhere be seen primarily as a defeat for the advance of a new equality and a reaffirmation of the status quo.


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 11:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yearning for populism (none / 0)

Your definition of populism is wrong, and your idea that white men are part of an elite simply because they are white men is absurd.  As a person who's been in poverty, I don't see how Barack Obama, or especially Hillary CLinton, who has never been poor in her life, would help me and my fellows more than John Edwards, who, after all, is making helping people like me the centerpiece of his campaign.  Perhaps I should just ignore you from now on.  After all, you don't seem to care about people like me, a poor white man, so why should I care what you have to say?

And you never answered my question: If I should forget my distrust of your favored candidates, why shouldn't you try to do the same for John?  Or can you not see past the color of his skin?


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 11:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yearning for populism (none / 0)

You have always been the centerpiece of his campaign.  When he was working as a trial lawyer and collecting 35%(?) of multi-million dollar judgments the "little guy" plaintiff was the centerpiece of his 151 million dollars in income (or was that judgments).

As between him and Kerry, I preferred Kerry.  But when Hillary Clinton tried to institute national health care back in 1993, she convinced me that she was for the little guy, because health care was one of my major issues.

Edwards hadn't even BEGUN to get involved in electoral politics when Hillary was trying to institute national health care.  Barack Obama was a $13,000/year community organizer when Edwards was making himself rich doing multi-million dollar cases, but without apparently doing a much pro-bono work at all!

If Edwards was for the little guy, why wasn't he on the board of his local Legal Services outfit?  Hillary was on the national board of Legal Services all the way back in the 1970's, when Edwards was justing learning how to sign his name on a legal brief.

When we are willing to believe whatever a politician tells us, based only on his own say-so, then we become especially vulnerable to hucksters.


by francislholland on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:46:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Did Edwards ever do any pro bono work? (none / 0)

Is Edwards REALLY a populist or just learning to talk very much like a populist?  If he was a populist, he would have represented some pro bono clients who couldn't pay for his services, right?  Here's what the New York Times says about that,  

"He would pick the cases that had the largest verdict potential," said Dewey W. Wells, a former state court judge who litigated against Mr. Edwards as a defense lawyer. "He had a good eye for those cases. He said he was the champion of the little guy, and it's true that many of the people who are injured are poor and downtrodden. He can say he was championing their interest, but it was only by coincidence. He was picking the cases with the biggest payoffs."

Another former adversary, James P. Cooney III, who defended a dozen medical malpractice cases brought by Mr. Edwards, agreed that "he was very selective about his cases."

"He only took the best cases, and by that I don't mean the ones with the highest damages,'' Mr. Cooney said. "I mean the ones where somebody had done something really bad."

But Mr. Edwards handled no notable pro bono cases, the typical vehicle for lawyers who want to have a larger impact.  http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/14/politi cs/campaign/14career.html?ex=1247544000& amp;en=870846aae154e1d1&ei=5090& partner=rssuserland


by francislholland on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 11:47:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did Edwards ever do any pro bono work? (none / 0)

I'm not saying he has always been a populist.  I am saying you should at least be willing to admit that he may be genuine.


"And so in the place of the palace of privilege, we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity."-FDR
by jallen on Sun Mar 11, 2007 at 11:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You seem to be making... (none / 0)

...a mistake. That mistake is taking FLH seriously.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:44:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why initials instead of your full name? (none / 0)

Michael, why do you go by initials here instead of your full name?  When I first saw your initials, I had no idea who you were or why you suddenly appeared and began attacking me so personally.

It was only when you signed a post with both your intials and your name that I knew who you were.

What are you trying to hide when you criticize me from behind initials, criticizing a man whose identity is known to all?  Do you think you might be more civil and respectful if you knew that everyone else knew who was saying the things that you say?


by francislholland on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:34:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have different IDs (none / 0)

...for local and national blogs. Nothing sinister, merely convenience for me to keep my accounts straight.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 10:12:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You seem to be making... (3.00 / 0)

Yep. FLH will do anything to shill for Hill. His latest go around appears to be trying to provoke animosity between Edwards and Obama supporters.

Pretty slimy, but what can one expect from a Hilly-Billy shill?


by ElitistJohn on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Personal Message to Edwards Supporters (none / 0)

Far from wanting to provoke animosity, I want all of you who do not support Hillary to see the obvious advantages of joining forces behind Barack Obama.  Let's look at this logically and strategically:

Continued at the Francis L. Holland Blog.


by francislholland on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 08:05:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did Edwards ever do any pro bono work? (none / 0)

Why would we want to tax our imaginations to find genuine populism in Edwards when Obama's resume is so much more demonstrative of populism.  It's really important that we endeavor to see what his really there instead of straining to imagine what we would LIKE to see there.


by francislholland on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:30:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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